Shopping Center Tantrums

renaek replied:

I was just reading your post and agree with a few things you said. But i also disagree with a few.

I have 2 young children myself, one 4 and the other 18 months and they are both at the stage of tantrums wherever they are. I agree with you about disipline and i do disipline my children.

But in the end they are kids and every child has them. Its apart of them growing up and pushing points.

The only thing that i disagree with you is - your standard line which you said for everyone to hear. Its not your place to say anything or to have words with the child. Maybe that mother just stood there and looked horrified but i definatley wouldnt.

If someone ever had words with my children like that where it is NOT their place they would end up having words with me. I dont butt in to other peoples life with their kids and i would expect the same from others when it comes to mine.

Renae

SubculturalMum replied:

Oh I only wish I was there to see her face after that comment!

I too cant stand parents that let their children run wild. I have  2yo who stays in his stroller while out at the shops, and a 4yo who walks next to the stroller holding onto it with one hand! They too know better than to act like that. There is no way they would get away with it!

#2 BAD Mummy!

TamAndAnt replied:

I would have to agree with renaek on this one.  If anyone ever spoke to my children like that, I would not only be horrified that someone could speak to children that way, especially a total stranger, they would be dealing with me.  I definately agree with discipline but I do not agree with speaking to children in the way that was expressed.  I have seen and heard children like this in shopping centres but I always let the mother or guardian deal with them.  I have learnt to "block off" and take the attitude that it is not my problem.

biancaj replied:

Yep put me down for # 3 Bad Mummy!!

I have a 14 month old and a nearly 3 yo and there is NO WAY they woulnd't get a smack.  Well, I personally prefer a 'flick' on the ear or 'come here' giving them a hug... pinching their arm while whispering in their ear that if they dont behave then they wont eat dinner for the next 5 years.  Its a little more discreet than a smack and they hate it even more!

Most of the time, the boys are good, but kids will be kids and when they are carrying on most of the other people laugh along too, as they have been or are in the same situation. I try to ignore it as much as I can, but if they ever scream/shout and annoy other shoppers then thats where I draw the line. Everyone else doesn't have to listen to my kids while doing their shopping. 

Ladywytch replied:

The trouble with not saying anything is this, too many people don't.  It should (but doesn't) take a community to raise a child.  Most young parents don't like what older people have to say about raising thier families - well maybe they should think again cause for the most part we've been there, done that and my comment wasn't the first just the most sarcastic and acidic; some lovely elderly lady tried the nicey, nice aproach but was told to pull her 'f***ing' head in by mummy.  Suppose I should have mentioned this in my first post huh.

Kids and parents alike get away with this abhorant behaviour - maybe if more people voiced their total and abject disgust these kids would't behave like this because the parents wouldn't let them. She could have said anything she wished to me but the whole crux of the matter is that her child was behaving badly and she in turn was too, by letting it happen.  I don't believe that tantrums are natural and kids are being kids by throwing them, cause hey mine didn't.  Oh and for the record I had at one stage, twin 5 year olds; a 3 year old and a new born and went on very quiet shopping trips every week with my sister who has kids that were similar ages (twins thrown in too) - no tantrums. And , I repeat they are not perfect, neither am I.

I know, renaek, that you are probably very tender on this subject because of the similar age of the child, however if I had been the store manager and had added up the cost of destroyed product that I alone saw this little bandit rip from the shelves, mommie dearest would have had to open more than her mouth.  This and the constant screaming and tearing in and out of isles was in itself enough.  I guess one had to be there.

And yes I am older and less tolerant and can see what such a permissive view can do to children when they become teens.  Out of most of my son's friends there are my 2 and only a handful of others never been in trouble with the law, never done drugs, never gotten out of control in anyway - if this is let happen over a lolly now and the mother is hit even slightly because he can't have a lolly; put this into perspective 15-20 years down the track with the mongrel needing money from mum for a fix or booze and has gotten away with tantrums since he was in nappies - you think things change just cause he is older. WRONG.  Permissive parents do not look at the big picture and the damage they are setting their children and themselves up for.

getting off soapbox!!!!

DISCLOSURE: Not aimed at any one here just me letting off steam so no offense meant - hope none taken.  I am sure you are all responsible parents of non feral children.

jeanh59 replied:

Interesting topic..
Maybe this a bit off the above topic but none the less i think its relevant to todays society....
First of all I'd like to say that i was smacked as a kid and everyone else i know/knew was smacked as a kid... My oldest kids were smacked... None of us ever grew up to be abusive towards children simply because we were disciplined in that manner, and i believe it did us all good, every single one of us....We didn't roam the streets looking for trouble, we didn't get involved with gangs going round bashing people and stealing from them, we didn't get involved in drugs or alcohol, we didn't do anything such as graffiti, because we knew if we were to do any such thing then we would get that smack on the a---.....  Discipline with a smack harms no one, todays kids are roaming streets in gangs, lurking in shopping centres in gangs, all or most of them looking for trouble, they graffiti, vandalize property, they treat their parents like s---, abusing them, etc, etc etc, and why because they know they can get away with it, why because no one is allowed to smack their kids anymore.. If you're out in public and get seen smacking them someone is liable to report you...  And my thoughts on those people are what right do they have to interfere, what a load of c---!!!    That is why kids of today are the way they are, because government seem to have taken over peoples lives and their rights... What right do they have to tell us how to discipline our kids, YES by all means tell anyone who abuses their kids off and do it with the correct punishment...but a damn smack on the behind where necessary would do them as much harm as it did us!!! none whatsoever!!!!
And whats more, the kids nowadays will  'threaten to report you to police' if you go to smack them!!  They know the laws now so will do whatever they want and get away with it!!!
I say its time to let parents discipline their kids the old way without these pathetic legal ramifications we all face in doing so..
There IS a fine line between one disciplining their children and one abusing  their children, i certainly DO NOT agree with abuse of any kind, whether its a child or adult...
JMO

sparklingvoodoo replied:

I too am a firm believer in smacking naughty children. I was smacked and I don't think there is too much wrong with me. Yes there is a fine line between smacking and abuse, but as many before me have said the reason society is the way it is, is because of the lack of parental control on their children.

I am really down the middle on this particular topic though. In some aspects I agree, but maybe the approach of talking to the child in that way was a little over the top. Maybe talking to the 'darling mummy' that way would have been more suitable.

There is no way in the world that I would let my 'FERAL' children run a riot in the shops as it does reflect on the parenting skills. Mine do throw tantrums and try and get what they want, but I am sure they can see in mummy's eyes that if they don't stop then a smack is sure to come.

My mum works for Kmart and she too is one who can't stand for naughty children who destroy the shop. She too has words at most peoples disgust. She has been pulled aside on many occasions by the manager to be told that she can't do that.

I guess my point is that it is not the childs fault BUT it is the parents and maybe they are the ones who need to be put over the knee and smacked.

JMO

Hennypenny replied:

Hmmm,

Yes, very interesting topic.

I am glad that the bit about the mum also being a "feral" (swearing at another customer) was added, as this certainly does change the circumstance.

I see LOTS of kids out and about, and within a certain age range, 99% of children are going to have a little coniption from time to time.

My to boys are 20 mths and 3and a half yrs at this point. Today it was the little one, last month it was the bigger one. I don't yell, I don't smack, but by gosh they sure know that I won't stand for it. I remain calm and tell them that the answer is NO and that's it. I continue my shopping with said child put into the shopping trolley so as to contain them as they have a bit of a whinge and it usually stops within a couple of minutes if I ignore it. And no - they don't get what they want. They simply learn that bad behaviour only gets a distant look and a lecture from Mummy. They are reminded in a firm but very low tone that as long as they behave this way, they will get absolutely nothing.

This usually illicits a Sorry Mummy ,Sorry Mummy, from my 3 yr old, but he is then told that this time it is too late for apologies and that he should remember this for next time and behave appropriately and politely if he is going to ask for something.

I would leave immediately if they were to ever become violent or start destroying property (this has NEVER happened) and I realise that other people don't want to listen to them have a big cry or whatever, but I also need to get my shopping done and as I mentioned before it doesn't last long anyway once they get no result. Mine are not the only kids in the world to misbehave at times and for the most part I am usually told by others (sometimes complete strangers) what good boys they are.

I have come across many a "feral" parent with "feral" children, and for these ones, I feel there is no use making a comment as it will not be headed by the parent and therefore is wasted.

On the other hand, if such a comment had been made to a "regular" mum that was having a particularly stressful day and just did not have the energy at that moment in time to contain the situation, making the statement that you did has the ability to cause feelings of guilt, anger and in many a mother- further unnecesary stress. It simply wasn't needed and did not change the situation.

I am a firm believer of - if you can't help - don't hinder. While I have made comments at times, it is never nasty as yours was and is not made public in order to cause embarrasment.

If a mum is looking harried and upset while her little one nuts off I ususally go with the old - yep, bad day at the office huh?

I always receive a smile and a sigh and a look of relief that another mum understands that sometimes life with children can be frenetic.

Mums that may be suffering from post natal depression ( you don't know their situation - or what may have happened to them that day) do not need unhelpful condemnation - especially in public.

Sure our society as a whole does need to pick up its act on the "respecting others" front, but nasty backhanded comments are not the way to go about bringing a positive change.

JMHO.

- Andrea.

plainjayne replied:

I think that it is appalling that people in todays society feel that it is their right to comment on other peoples children. It is hard enough to bring up children without having to constantly worry about what others think. Parents today are not like parents of your "generation". We are not ALLOWED to smack our children or discipline them in public anymore. I myself have had a shopping centre tamtrum or two and have made the choice to smack my child only to be reported to the police in the centre. I have had people abuse me telling me to smack only to go a further aisle or so and be told off for smacking and getting angry with my child. My point is that it doesn't matter what you do you cannot win. All I care about is the safety of my child and if others are offended by my child being tired, sick, cranky. hungary etc whilst out shopping then move away! NO child is perfect. And about the mother swearing, well.... she was wrong on that one. But, still someone felt the need to interfere and she may have been embarrassed and frustrated as it was. What I can say though is that if anyone EVER threatened my child in that manner or berated my child in front of me....then the police would become involved. The fact that someone could be so cruel and hideous to a CHILD says a lot about their own upbringing. Maybe we could say that your mother should have given you a good SLAP when you were a child then you might have learnt some manners!!!!!Those people were not laughing with you they were laughing at you and the fact that you would make such a fool of yourself in public as to attack a child.  There are a lot of "feral" children out there that go on to become model citizens and some children that are lovely little angels that go on to be disgusting people. But if people keep saying such terrible disgusting and outrageous statements like that in public what hope do parents have of teaching their children tolerance, patience and empathy for others. It is people like you that breed contempt, resentmen and insecurity in others.. How sad that this is the kind of society we have influencing our children of today.

Next time maybe take into consideration that  this child has a condition that causes bad behaviour or maybe that it just wasn't a good day to be out shopping. I am sure even you and your perfect brood had your bad days too. And for their sake I hope to goodness that you have perfect grandchildren....cause you may find that someone might think your grandchildren are feral and say hideous things to hurt them.

NB: I don't want to seem nasty but it just really gets up my nose when people assume that they have the right to comment on parents and children like that. Nobody is perfect and we all have our moments.

Ladywytch replied:

I repeat: "if this is let happen over a lolly now and the mother is hit even slightly because he can't have a lolly; put this into perspective 15-20 years down the track with the mongrel needing money from mum for a fix or booze and has gotten away with tantrums since he was in nappies - you think things change just cause he is older. WRONG.  Permissive parents do not look at the big picture and the damage they are setting their children and themselves up for."

Also I think I have gone to great pains to explain that none of my kids are perfect. 

I have a story to add, that happened over Christmas that I hope will help illustrate my point here.

My best friend of 25 years is a parent that allowed tantrums and bad behaviour and proudly states to all who will listen that she never smacked her kids.

My friend has cancer - keep this in mind - she has gone from a healthy size 16 to a 6 in 4 months and is not expected to survive past another 6 months.

On Christmas day she was beaten - yes beaten so badly she was hospitalized by her daughter - age 17.  One of these kids that 'got away' with it all - tantrums included.

You want to know why she beat her mum and stole her jewellery and money - oh this one is a doozy - at 17 she didn't want gifts she wanted money to spend as she pleased.

Her mum finally, albeit, too late her mum got tough and filed charges. 

This is the generation that started out as the toddlers that would throw tantrums and mum and dad couldn't smack for fear of police and court retribution.  Well now the police and courts are turning away from that particular law and you will not get arrested for smacking your child - the average cop will probably give you a pat on the back because they are the ones that now have to deal with these now out of control teens.

Back to my friend and her daughter.  This kid we have found out already has a record - got it when she ran away from home last year and got involved in prostitution and drugs and lord knows what else.   She is only one of many that I can name; one friend has a kid that is in jail for killing his girlfriend because she wouldn't let him drive her car when he was drunk - oh and by the way he was only 17 too.

No, my dear, my kids aren't perfect but they have respect for themselves and others and they do have self-control.  Something taught to them very young.  As for my grandkids well they aren't here yet but on discussion with my kids I think they will be ok too. 

This started out as a gripe I have with society as a whole and one mother's inability to control a kid that was in a school uniform so was at an age 4-5 (prep or year 1) that should be developing self control and has turned into a personal attack against me, my kids and grandkids (not even here yet).  Good thing I have a thick skin.

As for being smacked myself, dear one, several thousand times and I bear no physical or emotional scars just a deep intolerance of situations above.  The store manager had a nice chat with my husband (his ex-boss - small community) and the lost goods from this child's rampage was about $250 that couldn't be saved (I am talking one incident was shampoo tipped out onto a floor and the bottle thrown into the freezer cabinet to leak onto frozen pizza boxes all done with mummy watching - how proud she must be - tell me would that make you proud to watch your child doing the same)- would you be able to hold your head high if you allowed your child to cause that much destruction and upheaval.and the do gooders call me out when I refer to both mother and child as feral........no comment.

As for my friend, I  am showing remarkable restraint, due to the serious state of her health and the nature of her daughters' offenses, in not coming out with the 'I told you so' that is so desparately lingering on the tip of my tounge.  I stand by what I said to both mother and child as it gave us all another 10 minutes of peace when they both decided to behave themselves in the queue. Except for the death stares from mummy however as  mentioned above - thick skin.  As for you being nasty - no - everyone is entitled to an opinion and also entitled to voice it.  If we all agreed on everything it would be a very boring world.  I don't agree with you - you don't agree with me - we are however grown up and should be able to voice our opinions.

DISCLOSURE: Not aimed at any one here just me letting off steam so no offense meant - hope none taken.  I am sure you are all responsible parents of non feral children.

  M

plainjayne replied:

The fact that you continually put all teenagers/children  gone awry into this box of misfits only emphasises my point. It isn't always the parents fault. I feel terrible for your friend and am saddened that such a thing could happen to her. However, it is a bit harsh on your part to think that these mongrals are as a result of parenting today. I was not attacking you or your family for that perception I apologize. But I do not apologize for my opinion that you have NO right to speak to a minor in such a manner. Yes you believed him to be behaving badly and yes obviously you were justified to think that. BUT it still does not give you- a complete stranger the right to speak to a child that way. That child cannot help having been born to such a parent and it isn't right that someone who does not know him chastise, berate and terrify him that way. Whether you like it or not there are things and people out there who are far from perfect. But at what point does it make it ok for people to abuse others in public over situations they don't approve of???? In my mind and others that I have spoken to about your post agree, you went too far and were no better in your behaviour than the child and mother you picked at. I guess the old saying that some people shouldn't be allowed to have children can apply. But really what business is it of yours???? He did not hurt you personally so why would you say such a cruel thing?? Once again he was behaving badly as you said but still.....not your place to say anything. And the whole if you let it happen over a lolly thing is ridiculous!! How many children have had parents give in to the lolly thing and those kids have turned out just fine! For goodness sake stop being so black and white and accept there is a little grey in life! It's good that you have a thick skin cause having an attitude like yours on people you are gonna need it!!

Snazza replied:

Gotta say I can see both sides to this argument but one thing i do totally support Plain Jayne on is I dont feel it was your place to say anything to that child either. But then again I certainly would not have let things get so out of hand with my child that they caused so much destruction. I find it hard to comprehend that a mother would just allow this kind of out of control behaviour, but i also feel the fact she didnt even speak back to you when chastising her son that she herself has issues of some kind as there is NO way I would stand by and have my child spoken to by a complete stranger in that manner. I certainly would have had a voice myself. JMO

Snazza

biancaj replied:

I must say that I am enjoying this debate. 

.

I think that when other people talk to my children (bear in mind they are 14 months and nearly 3) they listen to them, as strangers, more than they listen to me. 

On the rare occassion they do have a tanty in the supermarket I tell my eldest that 'you can't have that/touch that because the lady over there won't like it' I then get the person I am talking about (man or woman) to put on a 'scary face' and it stops him in his tracks.  Then us, as adults have a little giggle over it, and move on with a well behaved child.   my point being is its needed for other people to be involved in disciplining children at certain times.

,

Maybe the comments made were a little harsh, but then again, maybe not....

aussiemumof3 replied:

I am really enjoying reading this topic.  First of all, I would like to say Ladywytch, that I think you are very brave.  First for speaking to the child and the mother in public, the way you did and secondly for telling all of us about it!  You have more guts than me, because I certainly wouldn't of done it. 

Okay next, I do agree with you that the child was misbehaving and I too would of found it annoying if the parent had not done anything about it, especially if the child was of school age, that is much too old to be having a tantrum.  But having said that I also agree with what others have said, in that you do not know the true extent of those people's lives and why the child was having a tantrum, perhaps the child had some medical condition like autism?

I have 3 children, aged 2, 3 and 6 and while they are not perfect, I have often had people comment (complete strangers) on how well behaved the are.

I don't know whether I think that you should of spoke out or not.  When I read some posts, I think they are right, but then I read another and change my opinion.  Perhaps the parent will think again before letting her child tear up a shop again in future.  Maybe you were her wake-up call.  No one can look in the mirror and see what is truly there. 

Once again Ladywytch I applaud you on your braveness for speaking out.

Ripnsnort replied:

Gee Im glad I dont have children to worry about

Ladywytch replied:

Well yes I guess Christmas IS a stressful time for all concerned, parents, children and shoppers that do prefer peace and quiet. 

In hindsight, (almost a year ago - funny this should surface NOW) maybe I was a little harsh. 

I see this woman fairly frequently picking the boy up from school (we live a block from it) - have been told by other parents that he spends more time suspended than in school but NMP.

I think this will be my answer to all in future - NMP. 

If it takes a village to raise a child - I think I'll move to the village outskirts basically it's NOT MY PROBLEM - however when the little mongrel decides to break in to my home in later years I guess an ornamental sword through the gut will be a sufficient deterent for the future. 

Then it will be my problem.

M

Lisasaysloveyourself replied:

Quote -'Some one kill that kid before it grows up and breeds.'

I would have been laughing with you not at you hun and probably have given you a high five to boot.

Lilygirl_wytch replied:

GGW! I have a suggestion! Stay indoors, don't look at people, be an EMO and blend in with every other lunatic LOL

only kiddin hun!

I can just see you saying that...not to mention the look on the woman's face. 

As a mother of five boys, I know how frustrating the little dear hearts can be and just how it looks when I serve the riot act on my boys.  But hey, damned if you do and damned if you don't.

If I discipline, I get critisised, if I don't I get the sighs and comments.  So now I just don't care what other's think if I have to have a word or two to my kids.

It could be worse.....

L

downunder replied:

Actually someone else telling my boys off worked 100 time more effectively than anything I did or said. Just the shock of some stranger noticing their bad behaviour seemed to shut them up immediately.

Julie